tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7459693255389523642.post7429131244072201122..comments2023-12-15T02:38:55.020+10:30Comments on Still Life With Cat: Some thoughts on crime fiction: 1Kerryn Goldsworthyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11270814460793882309noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7459693255389523642.post-23706942575491145602009-11-13T11:06:08.155+10:302009-11-13T11:06:08.155+10:30The incest taboo is actually about the accumulatio...The incest taboo is actually about the accumulation of property by a single family within the community. Marrying out = property dispersed.<br /><br />Read that some years ago. No idea where. I think it was. Nope, can't remember. Possibly in Science News.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7459693255389523642.post-38510336229662318892009-11-12T13:33:56.682+10:302009-11-12T13:33:56.682+10:30I was going to say something like what fyodor said...I was going to say something like what fyodor said before about having to have a death, but not necessarily a murder, for cannibalism.<br /><br />I suppose you can nibble on bits of people while they are alive but that’s just called "being in love" isn't it?<br /><br />I think it’s the murder, not the death, which is the irreversible transgression. Incest, mutilation, assault of all kinds, are transgressions but all able to be healed to a greater or lesser extent. Death is irreversible. <br /><br />I suppose vampirism is the closest – cannibalism of a kind - taking away the essential life force blood plus free will and paradoxically taking away death or the ability to die.<br /><br /><br />Oh and Pav - The Black Irish as the ultimate Other - maybe that explains why I've had difficluty keeping friends.Francis Xavier Holdenhttp://landownunder.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7459693255389523642.post-4485253034862480612009-11-12T11:32:13.985+10:302009-11-12T11:32:13.985+10:30"When I say 'feminised' as a comparis..."When I say 'feminised' as a comparison with Heathcliff, I don't mean 'emasculated' (obvs -- I mean, look at Heathcliff), rather in the sense of the Other, or 'outside the patriarchal social order' if you like -- socially marginalised."<br /><br />and<br /><br />"Racially foreign, beyond the comprehension of shrinks and profilers, beyond family, beyond the law. (Not to mention being gifted in music and languages and a good cook.) And yet -- exactly like Heathcliff -- he 'makes a girl's fur crackle' as one female character says in Hannibal. So it's not about Teh Sex, more about centres and margins, laws and lawlessness."<br /><br />Yep. Agree with that. Marginalisation's pretty key, I think. Do you think the fur-crackling is despite the Otherness, or because of it?Fyodorhttp://alizaybak.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7459693255389523642.post-77124742257549630722009-11-12T10:57:24.103+10:302009-11-12T10:57:24.103+10:30When I say 'feminised' as a comparison wit...When I say 'feminised' as a comparison with Heathcliff, I don't mean 'emasculated' (obvs -- I mean, <i>look</i> at Heathcliff), rather in the sense of the Other, or 'outside the patriarchal social order' if you like -- socially marginalised. There's a school of feminist lit crit that reads Heathcliff as 'feminised' in the sense that he has no money, no power, no father and no Britishness -- he is, from the descriptions of him as a child, obviously racially 'othered' -- either Irish or a gypsy, or possibly even an Irish gypsy. Let's face it, the Irish have been the British's beyotches for a very very long time.<br /><br />*runs away*<br /><br />*comes back*<br /><br />And so is Lecter. Racially foreign, beyond the comprehension of shrinks and profilers, beyond family, beyond the law. (Not to mention being gifted in music and languages and a good cook.) And yet -- <i>exactly</i> like Heathcliff -- he 'makes a girl's fur crackle' as one female character says in <i>Hannibal</i>. So it's not about Teh Sex, more about centres and margins, laws and lawlessness.Kerryn Goldsworthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11270814460793882309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7459693255389523642.post-86201794766723808962009-11-12T09:55:37.608+10:302009-11-12T09:55:37.608+10:30"Fyodor, on individualism and taboo. I don..."Fyodor, on individualism and taboo. I don't agree that murder is the ultimate: I have a theory (no doubt not original; someone must have said it before, probably the incomparable and sadly dead Lévi-Strauss) that the ultimate taboos are cannibalism and incest, and for the same reason: because they blur the boundaries of individuality, in an unacceptable way, which is sort of even worse (in psychological and anthropological terms, I mean) than the obliteration of it in murder."<br /><br />Myeah, I kinda see your point, but I draw a distinction between taboo behaviour and criminal status. Cannibalism of someone you haven't actually killed isn't perceived as badly as the Full Monty, and nor is incest viewed as criminally extreme.<br /><br />"I think, speaking of cannibalism, that you're right about the ending of Hannibal, which I really like, and read as a feminist-anarchist statement. Starling buggers off with Lecter and they spend the rest of their lives having a fabulous time sexing on and going to the opera and so on -- a sort of Cathy and Heathcliff except still alive -- in a joint rejection of the social order in general and, in particular, its guardian the FBI, whose patriarchal forces (both the individually concrete and the collectively abstract) have betrayed and destroyed Starling and which is of course implacably opposed to Lecter, whom I see as a feminised figure in the sense that Heathcliff is feminised. How's that for getting myself into trouble before breakfast."<br /><br />You see, I agree with your take on Starling-Lecter, but I don't know how many people I've spoken to on the subject that are certain that either Starling <i>wouldn't</i> have done that or, more importantly, <i>shouldn't</i> have done that.<br /><br />I'm interested in your view on Lecter as "feminised" - how so?Fyodorhttp://alizaybak.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7459693255389523642.post-49731333210963535522009-11-12T08:52:07.600+10:302009-11-12T08:52:07.600+10:30I stopped reading Ruth Rendell / Barbara Vine for ...I stopped reading Ruth Rendell / Barbara Vine for a couple of years after I chaired her session at an Adelaide Writers' Week. I also got rid of all the RR books I had because I knew I would never read them again. (Makes huge effort not to elaborate.)<br /><br />Fyodor, on individualism and taboo. I don't agree that murder is the ultimate: I have a theory (no doubt not original; someone must have said it before, probably the incomparable and sadly dead Lévi-Strauss) that the ultimate taboos are cannibalism and incest, and for the same reason: because they blur the boundaries of individuality, in an unacceptable way, which is sort of even worse (in psychological and anthropological terms, I mean) than the obliteration of it in murder. <br /><br />I think, speaking of cannibalism, that you're right about the ending of <i>Hannibal</i>, which I really like, and read as a feminist-anarchist statement. Starling buggers off with Lecter and they spend the rest of their lives having a fabulous time sexing on and going to the opera and so on -- a sort of Cathy and Heathcliff except still alive -- in a joint rejection of the social order in general and, in particular, its guardian the FBI, whose patriarchal forces (both the individually concrete and the collectively abstract) have betrayed and destroyed Starling and which is of course implacably opposed to Lecter, whom I see as a feminised figure in the sense that Heathcliff is feminised. How's that for getting myself into trouble before breakfast.<br /><br />FXH -- I had an essay in the Black Inc Best Australian series a few years back about the sublimation of individuality in the practice of choral singing, which I did for five years and <i>adored</i>. I called it "Brothers' Keepers" as a hint of what it was really about, but of course it was seen by at least one person as mere bourgeois frippery about high cult-cha. Jeez the current crop of identity-politics-trained literati are bad readers.Kerryn Goldsworthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11270814460793882309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7459693255389523642.post-46246830804804187852009-11-12T08:18:39.471+10:302009-11-12T08:18:39.471+10:30"fyodor - sometimes I think there is no such ..."fyodor - sometimes I think there is no such thing as an individual as say a Randroid would have it."<br /><br />How would a "Randroid" have it? <br /><br />Not sure what you're on about with the ianism.<br /><br />"anyway - hows the family - read any good crime books lately?"<br /><br />Me or the family?Fyodorhttp://alizaybak.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7459693255389523642.post-19675075605032234172009-11-11T22:25:06.867+10:302009-11-11T22:25:06.867+10:30fyodor - sometimes I think there is no such thing ...fyodor - sometimes I think there is no such thing as an individual as say a Randroid would have it.<br /><br />The person is the mind - the mind is language - language is imported from society.<br /><br />Individuating as the Freudian/Jungian/Lacanians have it is the eternal struggle to be apart and joined and separate but defined by the collective other.<br /><br />Its not possible, unless insane to be, only one or the other. Even then its possible the inability to live with the duality /ambiguity - co-exist that is insanity.<br /><br />anyway - hows the family - read any good crime books lately?Francis Xavier Holdenhttp://landownunder.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7459693255389523642.post-17189577456742990422009-11-11T20:41:31.885+10:302009-11-11T20:41:31.885+10:30This is a wonderful post!
I initially thought I&...This is a wonderful post! <br /><br />I initially thought I'd be too distracted by the slide show on the side, trying to have a good look at all the lovely still life images, particularly as I don't read crime fiction, but no, this was the best thing I read today. The last paragraph is particularly absorbing.<br /><br />Thanks.<br /><br />Looking forward to part 2.Tatyana Larinahttp://www.google.com/profiles/110149002210467039807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7459693255389523642.post-38281895864827904322009-11-11T09:09:31.581+10:302009-11-11T09:09:31.581+10:30Very interesting post, Mme. Pav.
I liked that las...Very interesting post, Mme. Pav.<br /><br />I liked that last paragraph in particular, and the contrast of social order and the individual. <br /><br />Of course, crime requires <i>an</i> individualism. As FXH noted, murder is the ultimate transgression, or crossing over, into the outlawed. You probably know this, but the Russian word for "crime", as in <i>Crime & Punishment</i>, <i>prestupleniye</i>, literally means "overstepping", i.e. trangression, or stepping beyond.<br /><br />However, as you point out, so often the detective (private or police), rather than embodying the conservative social order, is highly individualistic and/or self-destructively antagonistic* to the social order. Why is this? <br /><br />Is it because it allows for more powerful dramatic contrast between detective and criminal, or is it because the author (and audience) consciously or subconsciously <i>need</i> to see individualism successfully co-opted into the social order for the social order to be <i>perceived</i> to be maintained? <br /><br />I've often wondered about the latter when pondering the (negative) reaction of many people to the ending of <i>Hannibal</i>. Arguably there's a similar response to the deliberate ambiguity in <i>Blade Runner</i> over Deckard's humanity. Is he really an individual, or just a programmed slave? Why does it matter so much?<br /><br />* I say self-destructive because the social order always wins, doesn't it?<br /><br />WV = "pacedupe". No kidding.Fyodorhttp://alizaybak.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7459693255389523642.post-2449819005611199522009-11-11T05:37:30.899+10:302009-11-11T05:37:30.899+10:30I haven't read much Cornwell but I too was gre...I haven't read much Cornwell but I too was greatly put off by all the yuppie consumerist blather. As I remember it was more about food and other consumables than electronic toys, but can't remember the title.<br /><br />The Jack the Ripper book was quite a good read in a I-need-brain-bleach kind of way.<br /><br />Barbara Vine is my crime writer of choice (not so much who dun it as why they dun it), sometimes her alter ego Ruth Rendell.Helenhttp://castironbalcony.media2.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7459693255389523642.post-63818461547956430542009-11-10T23:14:30.351+10:302009-11-10T23:14:30.351+10:30Yeah, I gave up on the Scarpetta novels about 10 y...Yeah, I gave up on the Scarpetta novels about 10 years ago, I think. I really hated the main characters by then, and as you've said, PC, the crimes got really grotesque and overblown. <br /><br />I like the Dalziel and Pascoe books - very morally complex and often interesting sidelines involved. <br /><br />Definitely an large attraction to crime books is the pleasure of <i>sorting things out</i>. By the end, everything is in its proper place, and all the pieces have been put together. So often real life isn't like that, but it gives us a pleasure to do it in fiction.Legal Eaglehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01096038577529334966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7459693255389523642.post-14835314956500604862009-11-10T22:13:30.047+10:302009-11-10T22:13:30.047+10:30I like a few of the others here gave up on Cornwel...I like a few of the others here gave up on Cornwell long ago. Cliff Hardy is predictable but still worth reading. I would have stuck with Cornwell if she and Scarpetta had aged well like Hardy /Corris. In fact I'd like to see Corris do a Carter Brown. In a way he does - I know what a new Hardy will do - I'll finish it in a few hours but its still good.<br /><br />I agree with much of the rest of what you say - for me its character driven with a good hang together plot a bonus - its about human failure and hope - individuals flawed on the goodies and baddies side - the goodies mostly just trying that bit harder to consider others and a wider society - the baddies caring for none but themselves.<br /><br />James Lee Burke, Temple, Disher, Rankin.....<br /><br />I don't remember a good crime book without a murder perhaps there is one - there must always be the ultimate irreversible transgression <br /><br />Presently I am secretly buying the whole set of re-released Martin Beck series by Sjowall and Wahloo and re-reading them as i go for then third time.<br /><br />I'll probably not re-read any Cornwellfxhhttp://www.landownunder.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7459693255389523642.post-41914968109464182822009-11-10T19:48:24.261+10:302009-11-10T19:48:24.261+10:30I stuck with Cornwell up to and including Black No...I stuck with Cornwell up to and including Black Notice. Misguided loyalty I suppose. The books following were redundant on several levels, not least because writing in the present tense defeats the whole purpose of the genre and strikes me as a feeble, transparent attempt to be "literary". Also, Scarpetta's extended family got more annoying and self-absorbed by the page.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17055103046693024354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7459693255389523642.post-80366106269985317392009-11-10T19:29:42.168+10:302009-11-10T19:29:42.168+10:30We couldn't put down our latest Rankin, FWIW. ...We couldn't put down our latest Rankin, FWIW. <br />Have you read the Stieg Larsson trilogy? Wow! And then check up on what happened to his partner after his death - Sweden may not be the paradise that some of us envisage.<br /><br />WV "wailliz" ??Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12260041131953784035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7459693255389523642.post-66771705934387940432009-11-10T18:39:13.038+10:302009-11-10T18:39:13.038+10:30Never read any of the Cornwell, but I do think you...Never read any of the Cornwell, but I do think your analysis of the appeal of crime fiction is spot on. <br /><br />Wonder if the decoder/individualist aspects of it explain why crime fiction is so beloved by xtrmly srs academics?naomihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03714706512920191044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7459693255389523642.post-28741212489929439832009-11-10T15:32:45.179+10:302009-11-10T15:32:45.179+10:30I have to agree with librarygirl. I have grown so ...I have to agree with librarygirl. I have grown so tired of Scarpetta that my entire collection has been donated as a precursor to house moving.froghttp://www.froginthepond.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7459693255389523642.post-59923171427984288942009-11-10T14:50:41.814+10:302009-11-10T14:50:41.814+10:30I parted company with Cornwell after the idiotic a...I parted company with Cornwell after the idiotic and unbelievable resurrection of Benton Wesley. I thought the earlier ones were terrific though.librarygirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08417889399020548301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7459693255389523642.post-34260857505318443522009-11-10T12:01:10.809+10:302009-11-10T12:01:10.809+10:30Yes, that's the weak point in all this, innit....Yes, that's the weak point in all this, innit. I'm still trying to figure it out. Sucked in by a very rare flaw in Scarpetta, I think: early on, she can't cope with her new BlackBerry, partly because she needs to have her glasses on to see the keypad, so she disables the password and then someone pinches it, which could lead to horrible leaks. I think I wanted to follow the smartfone mini-plot. Which (SPOILER) merely fizzles out, after hundreds of pages of fretting.Kerryn Goldsworthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11270814460793882309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7459693255389523642.post-45404277926534487272009-11-10T11:54:23.922+10:302009-11-10T11:54:23.922+10:30So it was the sort of horrible experience you coul...So it was the sort of horrible experience you couldn't put down, as you tried to analyze what was wrong with it? Lucy S.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com